Created Equal? The Complete Lincoln-Douglas Debates of 1858 ePUB – Selindameditasyon.com


Created Equal? The Complete Lincoln-Douglas Debates of 1858 I ve listened to these debates too many times to count on my daily commute, at home, and many other places If you are a history nerd like me, this is manna from heaven Listening to David Strathairn as Abraham Lincoln and Richard Dreyfuss as the little giant Stephen Douglas, you almost feel transported back to 1858 as these two political giants trade barbs and debate the most monumental issue of the day, slavery So fascinating, and yes, so much fun A 19th century internet argument As schoolchildren, we re taught about how seminal the Lincoln Douglas debates were And from a historical perspective, this is true This was Lincoln s first real shot at national prominence Senators being generallypowerful than Congressmen and he was trying to unseat the very influential Douglas.But what comes across in the debates themselves is like reading an internet flame war between two people at 2AM This is less a debate than two people talking a A 19th century internet argument As schoolchildren, we re taught about how seminal the Lincoln Douglas debates were And from a historical perspective, this is true This was Lincoln s first real shot at national prominence Senators being generallypowerful than Congressmen and he was trying to unseat the very influential Douglas.But what comes across in the debates themselves is like reading an internet flame war between two people at 2AM This is less a debate than two people talking at each other There are some amazingly petty and pedantic exchanges between Lincoln and Douglas about who said what to which reporter, who was quoted accurately inaccurately in which speech and SO MUCH back and forth about I answered the question No you didn t Yes I did One example illustrates this pettiness where Lincoln is asked whether he would pledge to vote against admission of a slave state and the response is of a Well I wouldn t pledge to do it sort It s a little exhausting reading it all at once because of the fruitless back and forth, the repeated charges of obfuscation and lying by both sides, some of the goofier conspiracy theories advanced by both, and the utter pedantic and petty nature of so much of the debate Lincoln and Douglas repeat whole sections of earlier speeches that it also becomes a little tedious.Otherwise, based on his performance in the debates, Lincoln deserved to lose Douglas repeatedly calls out Lincoln and the Republicans for duplicity in how they re trying to portray themselves as abolitionists demanding black equality in some portions of the state and as defenders of popular sovereignty nee slavery in other parts of the state Lincoln s responses to these various and repeated charges is never convincing because well, he WAS duplicitous though morally right Douglas presents aconsistent argument for popular sovereignty that is obviously hampered by the contemporary racism of the time but in nearly every exchange, Lincoln comes across as slippery.Despite Douglas victory, it s easy to see why incumbents don t open themselves to debates of this sort any While there are some rhetorical flourishes, this was far less edifying than I was expecting Any one who had a decent US history teacher had some encounter with the debates that took place between the incumbent Senator from Illinois Stephen A Douglas the Little Giant and the candidate Abraham Lincoln in 1858 They were 7 structured encounters that took place during that election which allowed the first speaker one hour to speak, then the opponent took one and a half hours and then the original speaker took a half hour to rebut I had never taken the time to read all seven debates Any one who had a decent US history teacher had some encounter with the debates that took place between the incumbent Senator from Illinois Stephen A Douglas the Little Giant and the candidate Abraham Lincoln in 1858 They were 7 structured encounters that took place during that election which allowed the first speaker one hour to speak, then the opponent took one and a half hours and then the original speaker took a half hour to rebut I had never taken the time to read all seven debates and I would argue that this format is muchaccessible than reading dry words on the page.A lot of what was said in those debates is now obscure many of the names mentioned, especially by Douglas, are unknown But the issues then discussed were and are important They discussed both Dred Scott and the Fugitive Slave Law Lincoln both supported and was criticized for his house divided speech.One could listen to the rhetoric and get something out of the presentation Douglas was somewhat of a wonk and insider Richard Dryfuss who does Douglas does a great job of recreating how I think Douglas actually sounded.But there is also the benefit of understanding the skills of each orator in creating arguments Douglas kept hammering at one main point the states and territories should have the right to determine how they felt about slavery Lincoln makes a couple of arguments including one which suggests that the founders used odd constructions in forming the Constitution because they envisaged that slavery would eventually die away for example he ties the 1808 clause to that notion Lincoln criticizes Douglas for being unwilling to recognize the immorality of slavery.From my perspective Lincoln is at his finest in debates 5,6, and 7 where he demolishes Douglas.Ultimately Douglas won in 1858 But the last few years of his life were in turmoil He ran for President in 1860 and the democrats split with the Southerners going for John C Breckinridge He worked hard to try to keep the south in the Union after Lincoln s election but then died of Typhoid fever in June 1861.This is well worth your time At some point I decided that reading original documents was the way to go when it came to studying history Maybe it was when I realized that the David Barton school of thought I d been brought up in was sketchy Though, DB always claimed to own and base all of his stuff off of original documents, he just never expected anyone to check up on him I guess, but even before I realized all the problems with DB I still admired the idea of reading originals I now think reading contemporary comment At some point I decided that reading original documents was the way to go when it came to studying history Maybe it was when I realized that the David Barton school of thought I d been brought up in was sketchy Though, DB always claimed to own and base all of his stuff off of original documents, he just never expected anyone to check up on him I guess, but even before I realized all the problems with DB I still admired the idea of reading originals I now think reading contemporary commentaries biographies, etc can be good after all, if you don t live in an older culture you will miss alot if someone doesn t explain it to you , but you have to be on the lookout for spin Anyway, I boght this book on ebay years ago, it was the earliest printing I could find for a reasonable price And it s just been sitting on my shelf ever since I ve been trying to read through books I already own, rather than buying , so that I can declutter and then buybooks , and doing the library challenge is always a good time to do a short book SoPerhaps I had learned some of these details in the past, but history usually isn t one of my favorite subjects so without maintenance alot of facts get forgotten Anyway, these were debates for the Illinois Senate race of 1858 and were published in newspapers at the time my book was published in 1918, I don t know when the first bound copy of the debates was published Lincoln ultimately lost that race, but apparently the exposure helped him win the Presidency during the next election I had heard that Lincoln had never held major office before actually, he had been in both the state legislature and was a Representative in the House , but hadn t realized that Lincoln was the first Republican president Which means, he basically won as a 3rd party candidate Impressive Illinois was a free state, and wasor less the Western frontier of the nation at that time Kansas and Nebraska were soon to become states, and this was a big issue because people had different opinions on whether or not territories could allow slavery, whether new states could have slavery, what to do with fugitive slaves in free states, slave owners who traveled into free states territories with their slaves, etc Well, Lincoln was against slavery, but he wasn t yet trying to abolish it in the slave states, and in fact wanted to distance himself from abolitionists He was hoping slavery would just die out, but in order for that to happen we had to keep territories free, so that new states would not have a history of slavery when being admitted to the US, and thus would continue from free territories to free states He also did not believe in equal rights for negroes He wished freedom for them but not citizenship, or even the right to intermarry He believed whites were superior I guess I was surprised that Lincoln wasn t nearly as progressive as I had thought though people have told me that his views evolved during his presidency Maybe I need to find a good biography on Lincoln In an interview with Harrison Ford I once read that HF loved to read biographies and Lincoln was his hero.Reading reviews it seems there is a really good audiobook version where Dustin Hoffman reads Lincoln now I feel sorry to have missed out on that one I am very glad I listened to the audio version of the debates, with David Strathairn and Richard Dreyfus performing If I hadn t listened to the debates in their entirety, I don t think I would have really appreciated the masterful jobs both Lincoln and Douglas did with strategizing their arguments You can see many of the things we see in today s politics the kowtowing to political correctness, the name calling here liar and forger are the bad ones , acting badly to create an impression, nua I am very glad I listened to the audio version of the debates, with David Strathairn and Richard Dreyfus performing If I hadn t listened to the debates in their entirety, I don t think I would have really appreciated the masterful jobs both Lincoln and Douglas did with strategizing their arguments You can see many of the things we see in today s politics the kowtowing to political correctness, the name calling here liar and forger are the bad ones , acting badly to create an impression, nuancing a previous questionable statement, dredging up decades old news stories, showing perverse researching skills, storytelling like a local, andLincoln did all these things, Douglas did most if not all In the end, it felt like Douglas always felt he was in the right, never changed his story, but Lincoln really modified his attack from a legal to a moral perspective, which really only surfaced in the last debates I found the debate topics interesting, the strategies employed intriguing, and the performances on audio really matched what I would expect those speakers sounded like, Dreyfus as Douglas having a little Foghorn Leghorn in him I even followed on in text for a while to see if I was missing things So well done that after 16 hours of audio, I d be willing to readon the same topic I listened to an audiobook of the entire series of debates as read by Richard Dreyfuss as Stephen A Douglas and David Strathairn as Abraham Lincoln.I won t be able to do justice to the audiobook recorded in 2008 , which I highly recommend to anybody who thinks reading these debates might be a daunting task But here is a link to David Frum s positive review of the audiobook And now, I Fred Wemyss , have this to say about the debates themselves What I listened to an audiobook of the entire series of debates as read by Richard Dreyfuss as Stephen A Douglas and David Strathairn as Abraham Lincoln.I won t be able to do justice to the audiobook recorded in 2008 , which I highly recommend to anybody who thinks reading these debates might be a daunting task But here is a link to David Frum s positive review of the audiobook And now, I Fred Wemyss , have this to say about the debates themselves What strikes me about the debates is that Lincoln did very little yarn spinning in them We know him as a teller of tales with morals and pointed jokes, but what he does here, for the most part but not for the most important part is react to Douglas, swatting Douglas s attacks as if they were flies In other words, Lincoln is actually on the defensive a lot of the time, while Douglas simply keeps repeating that Lincoln has made deals with abolitionists Finally, though, in one of the last debates, Lincoln lays down moral law in an absolutely universal way In these debates, Lincoln lost the immediate battle, Douglas beating him in a race for the Illinois senate But, the telegraph having been invented by then, the debates were published word for word in newspapers in every major city in America, usually within two or three days of each debate This means Lincoln and Douglas were, essentially, household words across the United States for almost the entire year of 1858 People read these debates aloud to their friends and families as soon as they got the latest newspaper Their were etchings of the candidates accompanying the text In short, Abraham Lincoln was able to get his message across to a wide spectrum of people a good two years before his run for President Stephen A Douglas, who was as powerful then as Newt Gingrich was in the 1990 s, ran against Lincoln for President in 1860 and would have probably won if his party hadn t been split between Douglas and several other candidates The South considered Douglas too anti slavery This will be hard for 21st century readers to believe, given Douglas s proud if that s the adjective racism But Douglas was a backroom politician par excellence and he had finessed himself into a corner after years of sneaking pro slavery policies into various expansionist bills In order to promote slavery he had disguised his objectives as choices given to future territories and states The South wanted no ambiguity about slavery, or, if I may be less ambiguous about it, they wanted the government to permit it everywhere It is almost impossible to tell whether Douglas really thought slavery was right or not He keeps saying, in these debates, that as a senator from Illinois he is proud of his state s decision not to have slavery but he always points out that, had his state chosen slavery, he d have supported it there Lincoln simply reiterates that the entire country was either going to allow slavery in every corner or abolish it Douglas keeps saying the U.S has long been half slave and half free and that there s no reason to believe, as Lincoln does, that the country can t survive with that status This is where one s head spins Lincoln worked, into the Gettysburg Address, five years after these debates, the famous words, A house divided against itself cannot stand Douglas points out that Lincoln is misusing the Bible here Who, in 2014, can even think that anyone back then thought Lincoln was twisting Scripture to base purposes in applying the concept to the rift which caused the most massive carnage in American history It is interesting to note that, after Lincoln defeated Douglas for the Presidency, he sent Douglas to the Border states as an ambassador of sorts, in the hope of keeping them in the Union Douglas, for all his divisiveness leading up to the war, hated the notion of Secession His last days were spent in a frantic tour of the most combustible part of the country, hoping to patch it together He died of typhoid contracted on his tour, not two months after the start of the war I think, in the Gettysburg Address, Lincoln was perhaps addressing the ghost of his rival It may be what made it the most powerful speech he d ever deliver Complete texts for alldebates between the incumbent Democratic senator from Illinois and thenominee of the infant Republican party Paving the way for modern debates between political candidates, the events brought Lincoln who lost the election to national prominence and helped propel him to the presidency in Glad I read this before the election this year Things are different now for sure Regardless of who you align yourself with, Lincoln or Douglas, one must admit that no one debates like this anyThe way they presented and defended their stance was commendable Attacking or questioning each other was interesting as well Neither let the other get by with a less than adequate answer If politicians would still debate in this format AND the American people actually cared, we would not be stuc Glad I read this before the election this year Things are different now for sure Regardless of who you align yourself with, Lincoln or Douglas, one must admit that no one debates like this anyThe way they presented and defended their stance was commendable Attacking or questioning each other was interesting as well Neither let the other get by with a less than adequate answer If politicians would still debate in this format AND the American people actually cared, we would not be stuck with the likes of the last several presidents Both Lincoln and Douglas referred to Thomas Jefferson as being on their side These comments lead me to get a book about Jefferson If you have any interest in politics or how our country continues to change, I would recommend this book This book is a verbatim transcript of the 14 debates that Abraham Lincoln and Senator Stephen Douglas had during the hot summer and early fall of 1858 Douglas, the Democrat, tries to paint Lincoln as a Black Republican abolitionist, while Lincoln denies this but steadfastly holds true to his conviction that slavery must not be extended to the territories, while conceding that the government cannot alter slavery where it already existed These debates took place in a country that was on the This book is a verbatim transcript of the 14 debates that Abraham Lincoln and Senator Stephen Douglas had during the hot summer and early fall of 1858 Douglas, the Democrat, tries to paint Lincoln as a Black Republican abolitionist, while Lincoln denies this but steadfastly holds true to his conviction that slavery must not be extended to the territories, while conceding that the government cannot alter slavery where it already existed These debates took place in a country that was on the brink of disintegration, and although Douglas would win the election for senator, Lincoln won the moral ground and later defeated Douglas in 1860 for the presidency For hardcore political fans Very interesting audiobook, well suited to the medium given the nature of the content Some works of the English language are meant to be read, or like a speech, listened to These seminal debates between the master orators Abraham Lincoln and Stephen Douglas fall into the works of the great works of rhetoric for the English Language They can and should be digested as an Audio, and these narrators are truly fantastic in the roles they play Effectively, this is two highly intelligent, political Very interesting audiobook, well suited to the medium given the nature of the content Some works of the English language are meant to be read, or like a speech, listened to These seminal debates between the master orators Abraham Lincoln and Stephen Douglas fall into the works of the great works of rhetoric for the English Language They can and should be digested as an Audio, and these narrators are truly fantastic in the roles they play Effectively, this is two highly intelligent, politically savvy, and strongly principled individuals hashing out the defining issue of the 19th century, Slavery Stephen Douglas, the Little Giant stands atop the mountain of Popular Sovereignty and defends it til the last with remarkable consistency Abraham Lincoln fluctuates between the positions of gradual emancipation, Anti Kansas Nebraska Act, and Popular Sovereignty, as well explained by the review by Michael Austin listed on this Good reads page Both speakers have their highs and lows, either expertly describing the political history of both parties that lead to the current climate and discussion, or staking out the morale argument for their point, or attacking the opposing side There is also a GREAT deal of quibbling and squabbling back and forth on who said what, when, where, and why Douglas is effectively trying to pin either radical or conservative positions on Lincoln, depending on the audience, with solid success Both speakers fight to inherit the legacies of the Founding Fathers through their invoking of the Declaration of Independence and Constitution, and of the legendary figures of their day like Henry Clay Both speakers demonstrate clear strengths and weaknesses Stephen Douglas with his strong consistency is nearly invincible until Abraham Lincoln hits his stride and clarifies his morale arguments to an absolute awe inspiring cutting edge during the 5th debate and onwards His conclusions in the 6th and 7th debates are some of the strongest and most powerful ideas I have ever heard What strikes me is that this is no forgone conclusion, this is two men trying to hash out the biggest problem to ever face the country, and both believe strongly in their principles Stephen Douglas s arguments are just as pressing and urgent as Lincolns, and likely was seen as themoderate position of the day Another thing that really stood out to me is the dynamism of Federalism at play, and if the Federal Government should have any role in the expansion of slavery They try to hash out what is the role of the Federal Government on this important question, and it made me wonder what is the role of the Federal Government in the pressing issues of our day, like Healthcare After all, it is self evident that all men are created equal, and endowed by their creator with certain inalienable rights like Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness


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